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	<title>Comments on: Justifying the Means</title>
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		<title>By: oil rig jobs</title>
		<link>http://www.polycat.net/1920/justifying-the-means/comment-page-1/#comment-218473</link>
		<dc:creator>oil rig jobs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 05:51:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.polycat.net/?p=1920#comment-218473</guid>
		<description>Great article, but a frustrating read, due to the lack of proper punctuation in a lot of spots. Please close your quotations! If this article is following some sort of nouveau grammatical style, of which I&#039;m not aware, I remain frustrated; however, I apologize.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article, but a frustrating read, due to the lack of proper punctuation in a lot of spots. Please close your quotations! If this article is following some sort of nouveau grammatical style, of which I&#39;m not aware, I remain frustrated; however, I apologize.</p>
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		<title>By: Cullen</title>
		<link>http://www.polycat.net/1920/justifying-the-means/comment-page-1/#comment-218395</link>
		<dc:creator>Cullen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 21:46:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.polycat.net/?p=1920#comment-218395</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t look too deeply into it. I&#039;m not very good at this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#39;t look too deeply into it. I&#39;m not very good at this.</p>
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		<title>By: mittense</title>
		<link>http://www.polycat.net/1920/justifying-the-means/comment-page-1/#comment-218394</link>
		<dc:creator>mittense</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:13:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.polycat.net/?p=1920#comment-218394</guid>
		<description>So your argument seems kind of strange and lost in the mix of accusations you throw out. I&#039;ve read your first paragraph roughly five times and still have a hard time understanding what you&#039;re getting at. There are an abundance of missions in Modern Warfare 2 that are justifiably included in the game for either plot relation or just pure fun that the game goes out of its way to set up. The airport level comes out of nowhere, certainly isn&#039;t there for &quot;fun,&quot; and therefore we have to assume it&#039;s there to be engaging or thought-provoking. It provokes thought, yes, but mostly about its relevance in the greater game and whether or not its design and execution was in good taste. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;they thought they would put in a scene that would different and cool and with style&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What? How is anything about &quot;No Russian&quot; cool or stylish? It&#039;s about going &quot;undercover&quot; and proving your worth to Makarov by needlessly massacring civilians. Even by the low standards of a show like 24, that&#039;s a weak thread to go on. Given that the mission greatly reduces the capabilities of the player (very slow walk speed, no jumping, etc), we have to assume that, again, Infinity-Ward didn&#039;t want this mission to be &quot;fun&quot; so much as &quot;powerful.&quot; And maybe that&#039;s not a bad impetus, but the specific design and execution of this mission was so absurd, so over-the-top, and in such a place (an airport) as to blatantly work off of post-9/11 fears that I fail to see how anything makes for a &quot;cool&quot; or &quot;stylish&quot; thing to put into the game. And, yes, when you put the player in a role to kill civilians in an airport, taking the position that &quot;No Russian&quot; isn&#039;t intended to shock people is an almost non-defensible one to take. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And how does &quot;No Russian&quot; in any way compare to anything from The Matrix, again?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So your argument seems kind of strange and lost in the mix of accusations you throw out. I&#39;ve read your first paragraph roughly five times and still have a hard time understanding what you&#39;re getting at. There are an abundance of missions in Modern Warfare 2 that are justifiably included in the game for either plot relation or just pure fun that the game goes out of its way to set up. The airport level comes out of nowhere, certainly isn&#39;t there for &#8220;fun,&#8221; and therefore we have to assume it&#39;s there to be engaging or thought-provoking. It provokes thought, yes, but mostly about its relevance in the greater game and whether or not its design and execution was in good taste. </p>
<p>&#8220;they thought they would put in a scene that would different and cool and with style&#8221;</p>
<p>What? How is anything about &#8220;No Russian&#8221; cool or stylish? It&#39;s about going &#8220;undercover&#8221; and proving your worth to Makarov by needlessly massacring civilians. Even by the low standards of a show like 24, that&#39;s a weak thread to go on. Given that the mission greatly reduces the capabilities of the player (very slow walk speed, no jumping, etc), we have to assume that, again, Infinity-Ward didn&#39;t want this mission to be &#8220;fun&#8221; so much as &#8220;powerful.&#8221; And maybe that&#39;s not a bad impetus, but the specific design and execution of this mission was so absurd, so over-the-top, and in such a place (an airport) as to blatantly work off of post-9/11 fears that I fail to see how anything makes for a &#8220;cool&#8221; or &#8220;stylish&#8221; thing to put into the game. And, yes, when you put the player in a role to kill civilians in an airport, taking the position that &#8220;No Russian&#8221; isn&#39;t intended to shock people is an almost non-defensible one to take. </p>
<p>And how does &#8220;No Russian&#8221; in any way compare to anything from The Matrix, again?</p>
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		<title>By: tester</title>
		<link>http://www.polycat.net/1920/justifying-the-means/comment-page-1/#comment-218393</link>
		<dc:creator>tester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.polycat.net/?p=1920#comment-218393</guid>
		<description>What do you mean it isn&#039;t justified?  Any single mission except for the last could be eliminated from the game.  There is no single mission that is &quot;justified&quot; in terms of plot.  I mean just think for a second: could there ever be a scene like this that NECESSARILY has &quot;strong identifications with primary or supporting characters&quot;, especially for a video game plot.  Of course not!  No mater what, it would ALWAYS be viewed as &quot;shock-fodder&quot; because people would always have a hard time seeing why such a scene is necessary.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So since it is basically impossible to please people like you (once you realize that such a scene is never justified by plot vis-a-vis using a less-violent mission), people go and assume that the only reason they put it in there was for shock value.  BS!  What probably happened is that someone did the EXACT same thing as Kurt Vonnegut in SlaughterHouse-Five or Oliver Stone in Natural Born Killers--they thought they would put in a scene that would different and cool and with style.  Makarov&#039;s simple phrase, &quot;Remember, no Russian&quot;, his whole demeanor, the Matrix-style abundance of hardware and outmatched victims: they are all there to put the player in awe, not necessarily shock.  Now because this medium is a video game, which includes particular biased views, many assume that the developers must have put it in there just to shock people.  This assumption is COMPLETELY unfounded.  I mean, once you think about it, you have no evidence for it whatsoever.  It may have shocked you, but it is completely consistent to assume that the developers wanted to put something cool in the game.  Maybe they even wanted to put a thought-provoking scene in the game.  But the distance third is that some of the developers were twisting their mustaches and saying, &quot;I know, let&#039;s put something in there that&#039;s really F-ed up--let&#039;s just shock the hell out of people!&quot;  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If it came off as shocking to you, just realize how difficult it would be to make a scene like this even if the developers had no intention to shock people.  Then, upon reflection, your impression should seem completely unfounded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What do you mean it isn&#39;t justified?  Any single mission except for the last could be eliminated from the game.  There is no single mission that is &#8220;justified&#8221; in terms of plot.  I mean just think for a second: could there ever be a scene like this that NECESSARILY has &#8220;strong identifications with primary or supporting characters&#8221;, especially for a video game plot.  Of course not!  No mater what, it would ALWAYS be viewed as &#8220;shock-fodder&#8221; because people would always have a hard time seeing why such a scene is necessary.  </p>
<p>So since it is basically impossible to please people like you (once you realize that such a scene is never justified by plot vis-a-vis using a less-violent mission), people go and assume that the only reason they put it in there was for shock value.  BS!  What probably happened is that someone did the EXACT same thing as Kurt Vonnegut in SlaughterHouse-Five or Oliver Stone in Natural Born Killers&#8211;they thought they would put in a scene that would different and cool and with style.  Makarov&#39;s simple phrase, &#8220;Remember, no Russian&#8221;, his whole demeanor, the Matrix-style abundance of hardware and outmatched victims: they are all there to put the player in awe, not necessarily shock.  Now because this medium is a video game, which includes particular biased views, many assume that the developers must have put it in there just to shock people.  This assumption is COMPLETELY unfounded.  I mean, once you think about it, you have no evidence for it whatsoever.  It may have shocked you, but it is completely consistent to assume that the developers wanted to put something cool in the game.  Maybe they even wanted to put a thought-provoking scene in the game.  But the distance third is that some of the developers were twisting their mustaches and saying, &#8220;I know, let&#39;s put something in there that&#39;s really F-ed up&#8211;let&#39;s just shock the hell out of people!&#8221;  </p>
<p>If it came off as shocking to you, just realize how difficult it would be to make a scene like this even if the developers had no intention to shock people.  Then, upon reflection, your impression should seem completely unfounded.</p>
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		<title>By: tashtego</title>
		<link>http://www.polycat.net/1920/justifying-the-means/comment-page-1/#comment-218389</link>
		<dc:creator>tashtego</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:44:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.polycat.net/?p=1920#comment-218389</guid>
		<description>The &quot;twist&quot; at the end of &quot;No Russian&quot; was a giant fuck-you to the player. &quot;Oh, you think you&#039;re an action hero? Surprise! THIS JUST GOT REAL&quot;.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Except it didn&#039;t get real, at all. I think it would be great to have an interactive experience of the compromise and hard choices entailed by the &quot;war on terror&quot;. This game is so far from being that. So far, the only goal of Modern Warfare 2 seems to be the glorification of a vicious cynicism- &quot;whatever works&quot;. Why am I supposed to find that a fun gameplay experience?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Thanks for writing this- it&#039;s what I&#039;ve been trying to explain coherently to everyone I&#039;ve talked to since I played that mission.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;twist&#8221; at the end of &#8220;No Russian&#8221; was a giant fuck-you to the player. &#8220;Oh, you think you&#39;re an action hero? Surprise! THIS JUST GOT REAL&#8221;.</p>
<p>Except it didn&#39;t get real, at all. I think it would be great to have an interactive experience of the compromise and hard choices entailed by the &#8220;war on terror&#8221;. This game is so far from being that. So far, the only goal of Modern Warfare 2 seems to be the glorification of a vicious cynicism- &#8220;whatever works&#8221;. Why am I supposed to find that a fun gameplay experience?</p>
<p>Thanks for writing this- it&#39;s what I&#39;ve been trying to explain coherently to everyone I&#39;ve talked to since I played that mission.</p>
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		<title>By: bleahy</title>
		<link>http://www.polycat.net/1920/justifying-the-means/comment-page-1/#comment-218388</link>
		<dc:creator>bleahy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 21:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.polycat.net/?p=1920#comment-218388</guid>
		<description>The more I think about this mission and Makarov&#039;s subsequent absence from the game, I realize that it&#039;ll probably be the loose end tied up in Modern Warfare 3 or some future DLC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The more I think about this mission and Makarov&#39;s subsequent absence from the game, I realize that it&#39;ll probably be the loose end tied up in Modern Warfare 3 or some future DLC.</p>
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		<title>By: mittense</title>
		<link>http://www.polycat.net/1920/justifying-the-means/comment-page-1/#comment-218387</link>
		<dc:creator>mittense</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:59:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.polycat.net/?p=1920#comment-218387</guid>
		<description>The narrative has to justify the scene; since there are no real strong identifications with primary or supporting characters by that point, Infinity Ward, essentially, has to fictionally &quot;earn&quot; the right to use a scene like that in their game. It doesn&#039;t have to morally justifiable, but its existence needs to be justified by the story. It isn&#039;t and, as such, a scene like that comes off as being tasteless shock-fodder rather than a thought-provoking attempt to inflict very unusual feelings on players.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The narrative has to justify the scene; since there are no real strong identifications with primary or supporting characters by that point, Infinity Ward, essentially, has to fictionally &#8220;earn&#8221; the right to use a scene like that in their game. It doesn&#39;t have to morally justifiable, but its existence needs to be justified by the story. It isn&#39;t and, as such, a scene like that comes off as being tasteless shock-fodder rather than a thought-provoking attempt to inflict very unusual feelings on players.</p>
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		<title>By: Cullen</title>
		<link>http://www.polycat.net/1920/justifying-the-means/comment-page-1/#comment-218386</link>
		<dc:creator>Cullen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.polycat.net/?p=1920#comment-218386</guid>
		<description>That would be why they didn&#039;t kill all of the civilians: many reports of english-speaking aggressors. If there are no survivors, who will there be to provide witness accounts of the attack? Your would-be comrades were calling out tactical information in english during the entire mission, loud enough to be heard by anyone in the area.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;On the Russian penetration of the coasts, you&#039;re right. That is a pretty huge plot-hole. Even if our satellites were disabled, we still have ships off the coasts with their own detection systems.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It seems like the entire Russian offensive was a giant &quot;fuck you&quot; to America. They insert millions of soldiers, bulldoze suburbia and everyone in it, and take our capital away from us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That would be why they didn&#39;t kill all of the civilians: many reports of english-speaking aggressors. If there are no survivors, who will there be to provide witness accounts of the attack? Your would-be comrades were calling out tactical information in english during the entire mission, loud enough to be heard by anyone in the area.</p>
<p>On the Russian penetration of the coasts, you&#39;re right. That is a pretty huge plot-hole. Even if our satellites were disabled, we still have ships off the coasts with their own detection systems.</p>
<p>It seems like the entire Russian offensive was a giant &#8220;fuck you&#8221; to America. They insert millions of soldiers, bulldoze suburbia and everyone in it, and take our capital away from us.</p>
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		<title>By: Fabio (Aeson01)</title>
		<link>http://www.polycat.net/1920/justifying-the-means/comment-page-1/#comment-218385</link>
		<dc:creator>Fabio (Aeson01)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.polycat.net/?p=1920#comment-218385</guid>
		<description>Good article, I saw on your twitter when you first started talking about this, and I have to say I agree. I wish IW would have thought to allow you to kill Makarov in the airport, but then maybe you find out that wasn&#039;t the real Makarov and just a double then they set a preplanted bomb off. It would have still accomplished the goals they went for, made the player look guilty, kept Makarov alive and caused mass civilian casualties.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good article, I saw on your twitter when you first started talking about this, and I have to say I agree. I wish IW would have thought to allow you to kill Makarov in the airport, but then maybe you find out that wasn&#39;t the real Makarov and just a double then they set a preplanted bomb off. It would have still accomplished the goals they went for, made the player look guilty, kept Makarov alive and caused mass civilian casualties.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Tilton</title>
		<link>http://www.polycat.net/1920/justifying-the-means/comment-page-1/#comment-218384</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Tilton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 15:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.polycat.net/?p=1920#comment-218384</guid>
		<description>I have only played through a few missions in Act II, so I don&#039;t know the whole picture yet (I&#039;m on the oil rig), but however Trent&#039;s thoughts are on the mark or not in the context of the plot, the mission is outright stupid and completely implausible.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;First off, just because you were shot and left behind this starts off WWIII? I know the Ultranationalists are in charge, but Makarov says Russia will rally for a full scale assault on the US. Um, what? Because one American, who was obviously betrayed by his team with the point blank shot in the head, was found on the scene? Was there not a single witness, not a single bit of security camera footage showing Makarov and the other three obviously non-Americans killing civilians? And how about the American obviously not shooting any Civilians (should you choose not to)? And why does the FSB swat-like team allow an ambulance to just waltz on out of the massacre as they approach your dying body at the end of the mission? Lunacy.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Then there&#039;s the actual attack. So we&#039;re mean to believe that an ACS Unit (whatever that is) on a single downed satellite will allow the Russians to completely subvert America&#039;s ENTIRE defense system? Even if you buy into that completely implausible situation, it&#039;s obvious the Russians have no intent on sparing civlians in this attack, what with that armored vehicle firing like crazy on homes trekkiing down the street. Why wouldn&#039;t the Russians just nuke DC and get it over with? And what is with this cat and mouse mission you go on? What is so strategic about a gas station and a couple chain restaurants in suburban DC?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have only played through a few missions in Act II, so I don&#39;t know the whole picture yet (I&#39;m on the oil rig), but however Trent&#39;s thoughts are on the mark or not in the context of the plot, the mission is outright stupid and completely implausible.</p>
<p>First off, just because you were shot and left behind this starts off WWIII? I know the Ultranationalists are in charge, but Makarov says Russia will rally for a full scale assault on the US. Um, what? Because one American, who was obviously betrayed by his team with the point blank shot in the head, was found on the scene? Was there not a single witness, not a single bit of security camera footage showing Makarov and the other three obviously non-Americans killing civilians? And how about the American obviously not shooting any Civilians (should you choose not to)? And why does the FSB swat-like team allow an ambulance to just waltz on out of the massacre as they approach your dying body at the end of the mission? Lunacy.</p>
<p>Then there&#39;s the actual attack. So we&#39;re mean to believe that an ACS Unit (whatever that is) on a single downed satellite will allow the Russians to completely subvert America&#39;s ENTIRE defense system? Even if you buy into that completely implausible situation, it&#39;s obvious the Russians have no intent on sparing civlians in this attack, what with that armored vehicle firing like crazy on homes trekkiing down the street. Why wouldn&#39;t the Russians just nuke DC and get it over with? And what is with this cat and mouse mission you go on? What is so strategic about a gas station and a couple chain restaurants in suburban DC?</p>
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